Christianity

HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?

WRITTEN BY: GEORGE LUJACK

Scripture and recent scientific discoveries show that there are many components of the Earth, components that make the Earth both young (around 6,000-years-old) AND much older. This article will discuss the various age of the Earth theories while presenting an in-depth comprehensive study that supports old Earth creationism.

Young Earth creationists and evolution theory scientists disagree passionately over their beliefs of the age of the Earth. Young Earth creationists generally believe that the universe, the Earth, and the first creatures upon the Earth were created approximately 6,000-years ago. Evolution theory scientists currently believe that the universe is approximately 14-billion-years-old, the Earth is 4.5-billion-years-old, and the first self-replicating life forms evolved upon the Earth about 2.5-billion-years ago. Young Earth creationists make errors in Scripture interpretation while evolution theorists hold unproven, unscientific, unsubstantiated, and faith-based beliefs to support their worldview.

The words “IN THE BEGINNING” and “THE EARTH WAS” are key phrases in understanding the timeframe of God’s creation and will be emphasized throughout this article, along with some other key words.

GENESIS 1:1-2 (NKJV):
IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens and the earth. THE EARTH WAS without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep.

BERESHITH (GENESIS) 1:1-2 (HSV):
IN THE BEGINNING Elohim created the shamayim and the earth. And THE EARTH CAME TO BE formless and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep.

The word “WAS,” or the phrase “CAME TO BE,” are past tense indicating a significant passage of time. Therefore there was a significant passage of time between IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1-2) and day-1 of creation week, when God created light for the earth (Genesis 1:3).

Genesis 1:2 states that THE EARTH WAS without form or CAME TO BE formless (for life) and void (of life). If IN THE BEGINNING were day-1 of the creation week, it would be pointless for God to declare the obvious, that THE EARTH WAS without form and void. Of course the Earth would have been without form (to sustain life) and void (of life) if God, hypothetically, had just made it! The fact that Scripture declares that THE EARTH WAS without form and void indicates a passage of time.

God purposely declared that IN THE BEGINNING THE EARTH WAS without form (to sustain life) and void (of life) to negate the idea of evolution theory. Life did not arise from non-life, nor did God use evolution as a means, over time, to produce life upon the planet. THE EARTH WAS without form (to sustain life) and void (of life) throughout it’s ancient past. God formed the Earth and created all life upon it, according to their kinds, during the 6-day creation week (Genesis 1:21-25).

THE EARTH WAS there, created IN THE BEGINNING, before creation week began in Genesis 1:3. THE EARTH WAS without form (water covered the planet and it did not have a life-sustaining, breathable atmosphere) and THE EARTH WAS void (of life) (Genesis 1:2). Creation week served to form the earth, to make it suitable to support life, and to inhabit it with life.

IN THE BEGINNING… when was that? Was it 6,000-years-age, 4.5-billion-years ago, or 14-billion-years ago? No one can know for sure (at this time) when THE BEGINNING of time and creation occurred. Scripture does not declare when the beginning of God’s creation was. We can reasonably conclude that IN THE BEGINNING represents a significant period of time and signifies an interval of time before God acted in creating light for the earth in Genesis 1:3. The beginning was therefore ages longer than 6,000-years ago.

GENESIS 2:4 (KJV): 
These are THE GENERATIONS of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

GENESIS 2:4 (NKJV):
This is THE HISTORY of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens.

The heavens and the earth experienced generations of time, a significant history, after they were created IN THE BEGINNING, and before God revisited the earth during the 6-day creation week.

During the creation week account in Genesis, there is no mention of God making the Earth itself; that is God did not create THE FOUNDATION of the earth: the core, crust, dirt, mantle, mountains, rocks, soil, or water of the Earth during creation week. The land and water of THE EARTH WAS already in place before creation week began. The land and water of THE EARTH WAS created IN THE BEGINNING and was not made during the creation week of Genesis 1:3-22.

THE GENESIS ACCOUNT OF CREATION:

IN THE BEGINNING:

GENESIS 1:1-2: 
IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens and the earth. THE EARTH WAS without form, and void; …

The heavens (universe) and THE FOUNDATION of the Earth were created.

CREATION WEEK (After THE BEGINNING):

CREATION WEEK DAY-1:

GENESIS 1:3-5:
Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

Light was created for the Earth on day-1 (Genesis 1:3-5). The light created on the first day was not the sun, nor the beginning of creation, nor the “big bang,” but temporary light created to illuminate the Earth before the illumination of the sun on day-4 of creation week.

CREATION WEEK DAY-2:

GENESIS 1:6-8: 
Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters that were under the firmament from the waters that were above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.

A life-sustaining breathable atmosphere was made for the earth, referred to as “firmament” and “heaven” on day-2 (Genesis 1:6-8).

CREATION WEEK DAY-3:

GENESIS 1:9-13: 
Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth”; and it was so. … So the evening and the morning were the third day.

Water (on Earth) was gathered together and separated from the land. The water gathered together was called seas and the dry land was called Earth. God also brought forth grass and vegetation upon the dry land on day-3.

NOTE:
On day-3 the waters and the dry land were not made or created. The waters and land were already in existence, as they were of the Earth that was created IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1). The waters were GATHERED away from the land causing dry land to APPEAR. God did not make the Earth, the seas and the dry land on day-3; He merely gathered the already existing waters together and formed the seas and He raised the already existing land, that became dry land after the water was gathered away from it, causing the dry land to appear to form the continents (Genesis 1:9).

CREATION WEEK DAY-4:

GENESIS 1:14-19: 
Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. … So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

The sun was illuminated and light was made to shine upon the Earth – the sunlight for the day and the moonlight for the night on day-4. The sun and moon were also to be used for signs, seasons, days and years (dating and calendars) (Genesis 1:14-19).

NOTE:
God made the two great “lights” (Genesis 1:16). Many creationists proclaim that the sun and moon were created on day-4, but Scripture says God made “two great lights,” not the sun and moon. It is likely that He did not create the sun and moon on day-4, but instead ignited and illuminated the sun, creating the two great light sources for the earth; the sun for the day and the moon for the night.

NOTE:
“He made the stars also,” (Genesis 1:16) is a confirmation of what God had already done IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1), rather than a proclamation that He made the stars on day-4 of creation week.

The sentence context within the paragraph structure of Genesis 1:16 is like saying, “General Motors made this new model car on day-4 (Wednesday). They made the GM factory also.” One would not logically conclude that General Motors made the factory on the same day-4 that they made their new model car, and we shouldn’t believe that God made all of the countless trillions of stars of the universe on the same day that He ignited the Sun to illuminate the Earth.

God created the heavens (cosmos / stars) IN THE BEGINNING, not on day-1 of creation week when God created light to illuminate the Earth, nor on day-4 of creation week when God reaffirmed “He made the stars also.”

All throughout the creation week account, when God created, Scripture records God’s actions in a consistent sequential manner indicating an action having taken place or completed as God spoke the creation into existence. If God created the stars, all of them, on day-4 of creation week, Scripture would be more concise to say something like; Then God said, “Let there be many stars throughout the heavens.” And it was so. Scripture does not say this as Genesis 1:16 fleetingly proclaims, “He made the stars also.”

CREATION WEEK DAY-5:

GENESIS 1:20-23:
Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.” So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.” So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

All the sea creatures and the birds were created on day-5.

CREATION WEEK DAY-6:

GENESIS 1:24-31:
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. … So the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

All the land creatures and mankind were created on day-6.

CREATION WEEK DAY-7:

GENESIS 2:2-3: 
And on the seventh day God ended His work that He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work that He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work that God had created and made.

God rested from all His work that He had done on day-7.

THE CREATION, IN SUMMATION:

IN THE BEGINNING:
God created the heavens (the universe) and THE FOUNDATION of the Earth (Genesis 1:1).

CREATION WEEK DAY-1:
God created temporary light for the earth by saying, “Let there be light” (Genesis 1:3).

CREATION WEEK DAY-2:
God made earth’s atmosphere (firmament / heaven) (Genesis 1:6).

CREATION WEEK DAY-3:
God gathered the existing water that was on Earth to form seas and let the dry land appear (Genesis 1:9). God then created the grass, herbs, fruit trees and all vegetation on the dry land (Genesis 1:11).

CREATION WEEK DAY-4:
God made the two great light sources for the Earth (Genesis 1:16). He ignited and illuminated the sun to light the Earth for the day and for the moon to reflect the sun’s light at night. The sun and moon were also to be used for signs, seasons, days and calendar years.

CREATION WEEK DAY-5:
God created all the sea creatures and all the birds (Genesis 1:20).

CREATION WEEK DAY-6:
God created all the land creatures and mankind (Genesis 1:24-27).

CREATION WEEK DAY-7: God rested from all His work that He had done (Genesis 2:2).

The creation week consisted of six 24-hour periods, NOT ages or periods of time. Upon completion of each day of creation week, it was recorded, “And the evening and the morning were the first day,” … through the sixth day, indicating six 24-hour night and day periods.

HOW LONG DID IT TAKE GOD TO CREATE THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH?

GENESIS 2:4: 
… IN THE DAY that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.

God made the heavens and the Earth IN THE BEGINNING, in a SINGLE DAY. Afterward God formed the Earth to sustain life and created life upon the Earth during the 6-day creation week.

God most likely took about 1,000 earth years (one day to Him) to create the vast heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1-2, 2:4; 2 Peter 3:8). After those thousand years, or one God-day, God ruled over His creation in glory before THE EARTH WAS formed to sustain life (John 17:5). Then God formed the earth for life and created life upon the earth during the 6-day creation week (Genesis 1:3-31).

IN THE DAY God made the Earth and the heavens was IN THE BEGINNING, before the 6-day creation week. IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1) was a time period before God measured Earth’s days in 24-hour intervals, counting the evening and the morning for each day (Genesis 1:5,8,13,19,23,31).

God made the Earth and heavens in a single day according to Genesis 2:4. What is a day to our eternal God? Scripture reveals that one day to God is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day (2 Peter 3:8).

YOUNG EARTH CREATIONISTS

Young Earth creationists believe that the Earth and the entire universe were created approximately 6,000-years ago. They base their calculations on the generations of Scripture going back chronologically to about 4,000 BC. Young Earth creationists have incorrectly linked the age of the Earth with the time that life first appeared upon the Earth. They haven’t properly interpreted Scripture that declares that THE EARTH WAS in existence IN THE BEGINNING prior to the creation week. Thus young Earth creationists err in understanding that the Earth is old, believing and proclaiming the physical Earth to be young, coming into existence about 6,000-years ago.

Many young Earth creationists believe that proclaiming the Earth to be old, “opens the door” for evolution. This is not so. No amount of time, be it hundreds, thousands, billions, trillions, or even an eternity of years could cause life to come from non-life. God created the heavens and the Earth IN THE BEGINNING, then revisited the Earth some time afterward, approximately 6,000-years ago, and THE EARTH WAS still void (of life) and without form (to sustain life). Life did not arise from non-life, nor did God use evolution as a means of creating all the various kinds of life on Earth.

Scripture declares that THE EARTH WAS of old, created IN THE BEGINNING existing in a state that was without form and void of life. When God revisited the Earth it was still without form (to sustain life) and void (of life) (Genesis 1:2). Then God acted upon the Earth that was without form and void, to form the Earth to sustain life and then created all the kinds of life upon it, approximately 6,000-years ago.

The heavens and the Earth, God’s declared “works of old,” refute the idea that the Earth and universe are relatively young.

PSALM 102:25: 
OF OLD You laid THE FOUNDATION of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.

NOTE:
THE FOUNDATION of the Earth is OF OLD. The Earth’s foundation was created IN THE BEGINNING, long ago, and then God FINISHED the Earth approximately 6,000-years ago during the 6-day creation week (Genesis 2:1).

PROVERBS 8:22-23: 
YHWH (the Lord) possessed Me at the beginning of His way, before His works OF OLD. I have been established from everlasting, from the beginning, before there ever was an earth.

2 TIMOTHY 1:9:
His own purpose and grace that was given to us in Messiah Yeshua (Christ Jesus) BEFORE TIME BEGAN…

TITUS 1:2:
In hope of eternal life that God, who cannot lie, promised BEFORE TIME BEGAN…

God existed before time itself began. God created time, which did have a beginning.

2 PETER 3:5: 
For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were OF OLD…

The heavens are OF OLD, created IN THE BEGINNING.

JOHN 17:5: 
And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory that I had with You BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

The world was created IN THE BEGINNING, yet Yeshua (Jesus) speaks of a time that He was glorified with the Father BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. Yeshua (Jesus) was reigning throughout cosmos with the Father in glory, BEFORE THE WORLD WAS formed for life during the 6-day creation week.

To believe that the entire universe, the Earth, and all matter came into existence 6,000-years ago is a quandary itself and places God in a box. It would mean that God existed in a vacuum of space and time. It limits God as a Creator, to a 6-day period, 6,000-years ago.

No artist or creator works for 6-days, having never created anything before, or after, their one-week of work. Young Earth creationists basically believe God did just that.

IN THE BEGINNING signals the creation of time, the time the physical universe, as we know it, began. IN THE BEGINNING God created matter, space, and time. Time was created before creation week. Yeshua (Jesus) reigned with the Father in glory, before THE WORLD WAS, which indicates a time period before the world was formed 6,000-years ago.

There are several hundred billion stars that form our Milky Way Galaxy and there are an estimated hundred billion known galaxies. The universe is so vast; there are more stars in the universe than all the grains of sand on all the Earth’s beaches. The Earth, in comparison to the vast cosmos, is infinitesimally small. All things are possible with God, but to believe that God spent six-24-hour days creating the Earth and one-24-hour day creating the entire universe is overwhelmingly disproportional and a very Earth-centric view that is not supported through a careful examination of Scripture.

2 PETER 3:8: 
With YHWH (the Lord) one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Understanding that time is relative – according to science (Einstein’s Theory of Relativity), and God lives outside-of-time, what is a thousand years to us is as one day to God.

Young Earth creationists often cite Exodus 20:11 and 31:17 to support their belief that the earth and universe were created 6,000-years ago.

EXODUS 20:11: 
For in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

EXODUS 31:17:
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

These two verses are the strongest argument young Earth creationists use as Scripture proof that God created the entire universe and the Earth in 6-literal days, approximately 6,000-years ago. Upon careful examination of these verses, using a precept upon precept comparison with other verses, this is not the case at all.

The Hebrew word for heaven(s) is shamayim. Shamayim, or heaven, is used interchangeably throughout Scripture as meaning God’s dwelling place, the universe, the cosmos, the sky, or atmosphere.

Scripture itself, in the Genesis account, reveals that the word “heaven” is used to refer to Earth’s firmament (atmosphere / sky). A key verse in understanding mystery of God’s creation is Genesis 1:8.

GENESIS 1:8:
And God called the firmament Heaven.

In Exodus 20:11 and 31:17, the word “heaven” (singular) is used, not “heavens” (plural) indicating that “heaven” is referring to Earth’s firmament (atmosphere) and not the heavenly cosmos.

Another Scripture example:

GENESIS 9:11: 
And the waters prevailed exceedingly on the earth, and all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered.

The ‘global’ flood did not flood the whole heavenly universe. During the global flood, all the high hills under the whole heaven (earth’s atmosphere) were covered. ‘Heaven,’ when used in Genesis 9:11, Exodus 20:11, and 31:17, refers to the earth’s atmosphere / firmament / sky (Genesis 1:8).

A correct interpretation of Exodus 20:11 and 31:17 should be understood to mean:

EXODUS 20:11: 
For in six days YHWH (the Lord) made the heaven [SKY] and the earth [SUITABLE FOR LIFE], the sea, and all [life] that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

EXODUS 31:17:
For in six days YHWH (the Lord) made heaven [EARTH’S SKY] and earth [SUITABLE FOR LIFE], and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Young Earth creationists have a paradox dilemma: When were the stars created? They believe IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1) represents day-1 of creation week, but most young Earth creationists believe the stars were created on day-4 of creation week (Genesis 1:16).

GENESIS 1:1: 
IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens [INCLUDING THE STARS] and the earth.

GENESIS 1:16,19:
He made the stars also. … So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

The stars were created IN THE BEGINNING, which was long before day-1 of creation week. Genesis 1:16 is a confirmation that God made the stars also – IN THE BEGINNING. The two great lights – the Sun and Moon, were illuminated on day-4 of creation week.

TWO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCES THAT SUPPORT AN OLD EARTH

There are two well established, hard to refute, observable evidences that the lifeless, non-organic, physical Earth, and the universe are old and did not come into existence 6,000-years ago.

1. DISTANT STARLIGHT
Distant starlight from galaxies far, far away, whose light takes far longer than 6,000-years to reach Earth at light speed, is visible on earth. The oldest known detected starlight to reach Earth has been calculated to be over 13-billion-years old.

Distant starlight, starlight that takes billions years to reach Earth, is observable scientific evidence that stars are much older than 6,000-years. Young Earth creationists negate the science that measures and estimates the time distant starlight reaches Earth, by citing the following verse:

ISAIAH 42:5: 
Thus says God the Lord, who created the heavens and stretched them out.

God did create the heavens, and He did stretch them out. The cosmos are still expanding to this day and their expansion is believed to be accelerating, not decelerating. Young Earth creationists generally believe that God created the stars on day-4 of creation week, and then He stretched the stars outward while stretching their starlight back toward Earth so that distant, otherwise unobservable, starlight would be visible on Earth.

Young Earth creationist’s theory is that God stretched back the light omitted from stars to Earth, while simultaneously stretching forth the stars outward faster than the speed of light throughout the universe, to account for distant starlight. Young Earth creationists also theorize that the speed of light traveling through space may not have been constant in ages past. What young Earth creationists are proclaiming is that God supernaturally stretched forth the starts to make it appear that distant starlight takes billions of years to reach earth or that somehow light speeding through space was somehow much faster thousands of years ago, allowing us to see stars billions of light years away.

God doesn’t trick us with the evidences and timeframes of His creation. Young Earth creationist’s theory accounting for distant starlight that takes billions of years to reach Earth is completely unscientific and should be outright dismissed.

2. CRATER IMPACTS
Asteroids, comets, and meteors colliding with the ancient Earth left many detectable and observable crater impacts. Many of Earth’s crater impact areas, while still detectable, have been worn away over thousands, millions, or billions of years through erosion on an active Earth. The most preserved crater impact site, Meteor Crater in Arizona, USA, is the result of a collision between an asteroid and planet Earth that occurred approximately 50,000-years ago.

HOW CAN BELIEVERS KNOW THAT THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE AND THE PHYSICAL EARTH WERE CREATED “IN THE BEGINNING” AND NOT MADE DURING THE 6-DAY CREATION WEEK?

1. IN THE BEGINNING does not indicate the start of day-1 of God’s 6-day creation week. IN THE BEGINNING represents a significant span of time before day-1. After the original creation IN THE BEGINNING and after the end of each day of the creation week, the start of each new creation day begins with the phrase, “Then God said…”

“IN THE BEGINNING (not day-1) God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1).

Day-1 STARTS: “Then God said…” (Gen. 1:3), Day-1 ENDS (Gen. 1:5).
Day-2 STARTS: “Then God said…” (Gen. 1:6), Day-2 ENDS (Gen. 1:8).
Day-3 STARTS: “Then God said…” (Gen. 1:9), Day-3 ENDS (Gen. 1:13).
Day-4 STARTS: “Then God said…” (Gen. 1:14), Day-4 ENDS (Gen. 1:19).
Day-5 STARTS: “Then God said…” (Gen. 1:20), Day-5 ENDS (Gen. 1:23).
Day-6 STARTS: “Then God said…” (Gen. 1:24), Day-6 ENDS (Gen. 1:31).

It would be inconsistent for God to start day-1 of creation week with the phrase, “IN THE BEGINNING,” and start all the other days of the week with the phrase, “Then God said…”

2. Genesis 1:1-2 proclaims that THE EARTH “WAS” in existence before the creation week.

3. Genesis 1:3-31 covers the creation week, but does NOT record the Earth itself as being created on this week. On creation day 1 through 6, there is no verse that says God created THE FOUNDATION of the Earth on any of those days, but Scripture declares THE EARTH WAS created IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1). Planet Earth’s foundation existed of old, from IN THE BEGINNING, before creation week began (Psalm 102:25). God acted upon an already existing Earth on creation days 1-6, when He made the Earth suitable for life and inhabited it with life.

4. Yeshua (Jesus) was reigning in the cosmos / universe with God the Father BEFORE THE WORLD WAS reformed for life (John 17:5). THE EARTH WAS made IN THE BEGINNING, so Yeshua (Jesus) was reining throughout the cosmos with the Father IN THE BEGINNING, but before THE WORLD WAS (formed for life) during the 6-day creation week.

5. The heavens and Earth experienced a history or generations of time (Genesis 2:4). A history or generations of the heavens and the Earth do not represent a 1-week period. THE DAY (Genesis 2:4), the God-day that God made the heavens and the Earth likely lasted 1,000-years (2 Peter 3:8).

6. Scripture proclaims THE FOUNDATION of the Earth to be OF OLD (Psalm 102:25).

7. Numerous crater impacts upon the earth are much older than 6-000-years.

THE GAP THEORY

There are some theologians that understand the gap between IN THE BEGINNING and creation week day-1. However, many who proclaim the gap theory add to Scripture with their own personal opinions and theories that are unsubstantiated by Scripture.

The traditional gap theory proposes that the phrase “without form and void,” of Genesis 1:2 should actually be translated “ruined and desolate.” It proposes that Satan and his demons once inhabited the Earth, with the dinosaurs, and God brought forth a divine cataclysmic judgment upon the Earth, similar to the flood of Noah’s time.

Gap theorists further rationalize and state that God would have never created the Earth in a ruined state and that the Earth must have been destroyed as a result of Satan’s sin.

Gap theory proponents cite Isaiah 45:18 as basis for their belief that God didn’t create an Earth that was without form and void.

ISAIAH 45:18:
For thus says YHWH (the Lord), who created the heavens; who formed the earth and made it; who has established it, who did not created it in vain, who formed it to be inhabited: …

Isaiah 45:18 actually says God formed the Earth (Genesis 1:3-31) AND made it (Genesis 1:1-2), indicating two separate acts of creation. God formed the Earth during the 6-day creation week and made the Earth IN THE BEGINNING.

A correct interpretation of Isaiah 45:18 should be understood to mean:

ISAIAH 45:18:
For thus says YHWH (the Lord), who created the heavens; who formed the earth [DURING THE 6-DAY CREATION WEEK] and made it [IN THE BEGINNING]; who has established it [TO SUSTAIN LIFE], who did not created it in vain [TO REMAIN VOID], who formed it to be inhabited [DURING THE 6-DAY CREATION WEEK]: …

Gap theorists believe that there was an age of life, ruled by Satan, that God wiped out through judgment in Genesis 1:2. Scripture records that it was through man’s sin, not Satan’s, that sin and death entered the physical world. Satan is a spiritual being that exists in the spiritual realm, not a physical being that once inhabited the physical Earth. There was no death of any creatures, including dinosaurs, in the world before Adam’s sin.

ROMANS 5:12: 
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin…

1 CORINTHIANS 15:21-22: 
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah (Christ) all shall be made alive.

God has created many things that are without form and void. Man doesn’t always know the purpose of all of God’s creations. Some of His creation has a more significant purpose, some less. God has created many planetary bodies in our solar system and throughout the universe that we are only now beginning to discover. These planets (such as Mars) may, at the moment, be unformed, but perhaps God will form them (for life) in the future. All this is speculation, of course. The gap theory errs in assuming that God could not have originally made an unformed Earth, and then formed it afterward to be suitable for life.

A verse cited to support that the Earth was flooded twice in judgment:

GENESIS 1:28 (KJV): 
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and REPLENISH the earth and subdue it…

It is believed by GAP theorists that man (Adam and Eve) were commanded by God to replenish life upon the Earth, after it was flooded from Satan’s rebellion and all life was wiped out on Earth.

The New King James and the Halleluyah Scriptures versions translate Genesis 1:28 somewhat differently than the King James, using “fill the earth” instead of “replenish the earth.” Adam and Eve did not replenished the earth; they filled it.

GENESIS 1:28 (NKJV): 
Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; FILL the earth and subdue it…”

BERESHITH (GENESIS) 1:28 (HSV): 
And Elohim barak them, and Elohim said to them, “Bear fruit and increase, and FILL the earth and subdue it…”

EVOLUTION THEORY SCIENTISTS

YHWH (the Lord) questioned Job … and this question is relevant to modern evolution theory scientists, who act and think like they know all the answers.

JOB 38:4: 
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding.

Evolution theory scientists estimate that the Earth is 4.5-billion-years-old and that the universe is 13.8-billion-years-old. In coming to these conclusions, Earth’s rocks are tested using highly unreliable radiometric dating methods and the expanse of the universe is measured in reverse to try to come to a zero starting point of when the universe began according to the Big Bang theory. The oldest known starlight is estimated to be about 13.6 billion-years-old.

The Earth is as old as the universe. IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens (universe) and the Earth (Genesis 1:2). There is no age difference between the Earth and the universe as many secular astronomists proclaim.

AREN’T DINOSAURS AND OTHER FOSSILIZED CREATURES MILLIONS OF YEARS OLD?

No. Dinosaurs, as land creatures, were created on day-6 of creation week. The first dinosaurs that lived were created approximately 6,000-years ago.

Radiometric dating methods are highly unreliable, and are completely unreliable past four thousand years. The rate of decay of carbon and other isotope elements are used to date fossils and Earth’s rocks to determine their age. Since fossils and rocks cannot be measured beyond a few thousand years, because we cannot assume the rate of decay beyond those unknown years was constant (due to various factors), radiocarbon and radiometric dating is based on faith, not verifiable science.

Scientists have often made a proclamation that a certain creature has been extinct for millions of years and then afterward the so-called extinct creature is found to be alive and well, unchanged by evolution, and living somewhere on Earth. Such was the case with the coelacanth fish. Coelacanths were thought to be extinct for over 50-million-years, but were rediscovered off the coast of South Africa in 1938.

Recent Tyrannosaurus Rex dinosaur bone examinations have revealed intact soft tissue and blood fragments. These discoveries strongly refute the evolution theory scientist’s view that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. Yet in spite of this new scientific evidence, evolution theory scientists proclaim that it is amazing that blood and soft tissue from a 70-million-year-old dinosaur could have remained intact.

It would be difficult for any creature’s blood and soft tissue to remain intact for 7-years, 70-years, 700-years, or 7,000-years. It would be impossible for dinosaur blood and soft tissue to remain intact for 70,000,000-years! 70-million-years are a LOT of years for blood and soft tissue to survive intact on an active Earth!

Evolution theory scientists are in scientific denial about recent findings of dinosaur blood and soft tissue; scientific evidence that refutes their theory that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago. Evolution theory scientists are so sure that dinosaurs lived millions of years ago that they cannot even grasp the concept that most of the dinosaurs died thousands of years ago in the great flood of Noah’s time. Even when presented with compelling blood and soft tissue evidence, they cling to their theory that dinosaurs died out 65-70-million-years-ago.

HOW OLD IS THE UNIVERSE?

How long ago was IN THE BEGINNING, when the heavens and the Earth first came into existence? No one can say for sure. To compare Scripture with distant starlight, a certain theoretical formula can be attained.

God created the heavens and the Earth in the beginning (Genesis 1:1), in a day (Genesis 2:4). A God-day = 1,000-years (2 Peter 3:8).

The heavens and the Earth experienced a history, a passage of generations of time (Genesis 2:4).

If a God day = 1,000-years, then a God year = 365,000-years.

A generation at 40-years would mean a generation of the heavens and the Earth would be 365,000-years x 40 = 14,600,000-years.

If a generation of the heavens and the Earth was 14.6 million-years, then 1,000 generations of the heavens and the earth would = 14.6 billion-years.

Based on distant starlight, scientists estimate the universe to be at least 13-billion-years-old. It is unknown how many generations of the heavens and the Earth passed, before God formed the Earth and created life upon it approximately 6,000-years-ago during the 6-day creation week. If it were 1,000-generations of the heavens and the Earth that passed, since the beginning, that would make the universe approximately 14.6-billion-years-old. Man cannot know the exact age of the universe at this time.

HOW OLD IS THE EARTH?

The age of the Earth is a complex question with no single answer. The Earth’s foundation was created along with the universe in a single day (a God-day or thousand year period – 2 Peter 3:8) IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1, 2:4). The Earth was formed to be habitable for life and life was created upon the Earth about 6-000-years ago during the 6-day creation week (Genesis 1:3-2:2; Exodus 20:11, 31:17). The Earth is composed of different elements that have different ages. The Earth itself, (the foundation of the Earth), and the universe, are old (Psalm 102:25; Proverbs 8:22-23, 2 Peter 3:5). All life upon Earth is young, going back 6,000-years (Genesis 1:11-13, 20-31).

The Earth’s foundation (the core, crust, dirt, mantle, mountains, rocks, soil, and water of the earth) was created IN THE BEGINNING. The foundation of the Earth is as old as the universe itself, as the heavens and the Earth were created together IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1). The Earth was in existence before God acted upon it during the 6-day creation week, to make it suitable for sustaining life and filling it with life. The age of the Earth is unknown, as Scripture does not reveal the Earth’s age, but it is likely billions of years old based on scientific observations of distant starlight.

The Earth’s atmosphere, the majority of it, is approximately 6,000-years-old. God made the atmosphere (sky / firmament / heaven) for the Earth on day-2 of creation week (Genesis 1:6-8). The Earth, as a planetary body large enough to retain an atmosphere, would most likely have had some type of atmosphere from when it was originally created IN THE BEGINNING. Therefore, the Earth’s atmosphere is likely a mix of gaseous elements created by God on day-2 of creation week and the atmospheric gasses that were retained by the Earth IN THE BEGINNING, from billions of years ago.

All life upon Earth began approximately 6,000-years-ago. God created the grass, herbs, fruit trees, and all vegetation on day-3 of creation week (Genesis 1:11-13). God created all the sea creatures and birds on day-5 of creation week (Genesis 1:20-23). God created all the land creatures and mankind on day-6 of creation week (Genesis 1:24-31).

These are currently the best-known age(s) of the Earth, the sky, and life upon the Earth.

23 Comments

23 Comments

  1. David H.

    December 12, 2015 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm

    George,
    Well, you did a nice Job making your point here. But you did fail to address the issues I raised in our previous comments on the said topic. I am going to give you a SIMPLE example of how you are reading into scripture what is not there. The following is a typical paragraph you and I would write.

    1. This morning I went Christmas shopping for my family. First I drove to the toy store, and bought some games for my kids. Then I drove to the clothes store to buy some clothes, and then to the hardware store to buy some tools. I was finished with My shopping before lunch time. and went home and took a nap.

    Now No one with any common sense would argue that there was a different morning that I went Christmas shopping, and the day that I went to the toy store was a different day. That is essentially what you are doing with genesis 1:1. You are separating an introductory sentence from its context, which is to talk about the beginning of Creation…All of it.

    This was my point when I told you to compare this passage to Genesis 13:1-3, as this passage has exactly the same grammatical structure as Genesis 1:1-3, yet we do not interpret a Gap there. You still have not addressed that argument against your theory adequately.
    ====================================
    2. You state above, time began “in the beginning”. I agree. What is it that we measure time with? Days, Minutes, seconds, light speed. All of these are dependent on Light being in existence. There is no way to measure a day without light. A second is based on the length of a day. A light second is based on the speed of light. To say that there was another day before day one of creation is just plain illogical. I used the analogy of temperature. Without energy, there is no way to measure temperature. Even science accepts the concept of absolute zero, to which there is nothing colder. Thus the Beginning is our absolute zero, when it comes to time, and the creation of light is the energy that moves time. Light and the beginning are inseparable. Like the above example, My Christmas shopping began with me going to the toy store….Simple common sense.
    ===================================
    3. God is an eternal being. He is above and beyond time. He has no beginning. The heaven where he dwells has no beginning. He is the “I Am”, the Existant one, The one who “Was and Is , and Is to come.” Temporal man can barely grasp the eternal God. Just like those living in the third dimension can barely grasp that there is a fourth dimension. To use an example, Let’s say there was a two dimensional world, where everyone living was either a dot or a dash, and there was no height to it. When a Three dimensional object is placed in that world, all that those two dimensional dots and dashes would see is another dot or dash appearing out of nowhere. They could not even begin to grasp the shape of the object that is placed into their world, as they could only see its footprint. This is how little we can grasp the immensity of the eternal God, as we are temporal beings locked in a temporal world. To claim that we have knowledge of the eternal is merely Hubris on our part. Especially when our temporal mind proclaims that it can Know God through intellect alone, in absentia of divine revelation. This is the Big error of theology, and Hebrew exegesis, known as PaRDeS.
    =======================================
    4. The Word of God is God revealing himself to us. His footprint in the temporal world. Without the Holy Spirit man and his intellect can only see dots and dashes, words on the page. There is no life to those words. They are an object of study, and God himself is merely an intellectual concept. The Old saying being appropriate here, That there are a lot of people who know about God, but very few who know God intimately. Paul writes about this.
    10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? (1 Corinthians 2:10-11) The secret Hidden things of God can ONLY be known by the teaching of the Holy Spirit, Not by intellectual study. When I said this before, you accused me of saying that studying is not essential to our Christian life. To the contrary, Study of scripture is essential to bringing us to the point of humility to say God is so much greater than our intellect. Leonard Ravenhill said that within the leadership of the churches there is an intellectual idolatry. That the emphasis in the church has moved from being called and anointed by the Lord, to a profession based on what degrees you hold from the Bible college. What the church has become is dead institution relying on dead shepherds who do not hear the voice of God. I say this to you here, because this study of yours, though thorough and fair, Is solely based on intellectual Hubris and ascent.
    It is not the “Truth” revealed, by the author of Truth, instead it introduces confusion and contradiction to scripture. Other than the obvious compromise made to modern scientific findings, which are agenda driven and unreliable and unprovable, as they rely on uniformitarian assumptions, There is the contradiction of the very words of Jesus and the beliefs held by the apostles. Over and over again, Jesus and his disciples equate the creation of man with in the beginning.
    4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, (Matthew 19:4)
    Well, here we have a contradiction to your theory. Was the beginning a different day, or is the beginning a reference to the first six days? Just like my example above. In the beginning I “went” to the Store. I “Drove”, is the method I used to go to the store. In the beginning God “created”…On the first day he “said”, on the second day he “said”…..His spoken word is the mere method he used to create, and not a different means of creation as you have written.
    ====================================
    5. The denial of the supernatural act of creation.
    God created man as an adult, Adam was not born as a baby. simple concept we all can agree on. God created the stars on the fourth day, and their light was instantaneous. Fact is God created the stars on the fourth day of creation.
    And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day. (Genesis 1) If light speed is a constant, we would be seeing stars appearing out of nowhere even today. But we do not. Therefore, either light speed was instantaneous at creation or the age of the universe needs to be older. I believe the former, you believe the latter. But you also believe that God created in six days what is visible to us. So there is a contradiction in your theory, an obvious one, which I am amazed that you cannot see. God created the stars on the fourth day, along with the sun and moon, and “set” them in the expanse of the heavens to give light. Their light shone on that very day. There was no sun shining on day one of creation. Only the Son.
    The trees. They were created as fully grown fruit bearing trees on the third day. Like man, they were not seeds planted and grown, but were created as fully mature. Just like the animals. God did not place a bunch of baby animals on the earth, instead he created mature grown animals…The Chicken came first, and not the egg. Your theory is putting the egg before the chicken when it comes to the stars, and the sun and the moon. Thus denying the miraculous act of creation. As I said in one of my earlier comments to you, this is not about me winning an argument, but about God being glorified for his wondrous and miraculous act of creation. You have put an eternal God in the box of human comprehension, Thus limiting his supernatural abilities to create instantaneously by his spoken Word. This is nothing more than a compromise with the atheistic science of the day. A Hegelian synthesis between Christianity and Pseudo science. Christianity and true science are NOT at odds with each other, together they help us arrive at Truth. When they are in a Hegellian dialectic, science will always say Christianity is a bunch of flat earthers as you have accused me of before, and the church will burn Copernicus at the stake over and over again as a heretic. Truth, and Jesus is the Truth, is arrived at by both science and religion. The Hegellian dialectic merely makes truth relative, and the thing which is arrived at as a compromise of the truth. To put this in the form of an equation, the Hegellian dialectic has truth opposing truth in a thesis antithesis relationship arriving at a synthesis, which is merely another synthesis. The way God created it, is science and Christianity working together to arrive at Truth. As Leonard Ravenhill said, “Either the Bible is absolute, or its obsolete.” It really does not matter which side you pick as the “thesis” in the Hegellian Dialectic, science or religion, you will still arrive at a compromise which is neither true, nor science. Your theory, just is just both bad science, and bad religion. And I say this not with any ill will towards you, because I say the same to the atheist as well. Both are being influenced by the Marxist teachings at the universities of this country which promote relativism, and Marxist Hegellian methodology, pitting religion as an opposing force to science. This is what the Marxists want you to believe, and many are all too eager to work for the powers of this world to make it so. I Pray this comment removes those scales from your eyes, that are making you Blind to the Truth.
    ==============================
    Many say we are in the Laodicean Church age. I want you to read that letter again in light of what was said here about the Hegelian dialectic.
    14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
    15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

    May God Bless you.

  2. George Lujack

    George Lujack

    December 13, 2015 5:25 am at 5:25 am

    David H:
    I am going to give you a SIMPLE example of how you are reading into scripture what is not there. The following is a typical paragraph you and I would write.
    1. This morning I went Christmas shopping for my family. First I drove to the toy store, and bought some games for my kids. Then I drove to the clothes store to buy some clothes, and then to the hardware store to buy some tools. I was finished with My shopping before lunch time. and went home and took a nap.
    Now No one with any common sense would argue that there was a different morning that I went Christmas shopping, and the day that I went to the toy store was a different day. That is essentially what you are doing with genesis 1:1. You are separating an introductory sentence from its context, which is to talk about the beginning of Creation…All of it.
    —————–
    RESPONSE:
    The example you have given demonstrates YOUR reading into Scripture the way YOU think it is laid out based on YOUR daily life.
    ———————————————–
    As I stated in the article, an excerpt:
    “Genesis 1:2 states that THE EARTH WAS without form or CAME TO BE formless (for life) and void (of life). If IN THE BEGINNING were day-1 of the creation week, it would be pointless for God to declare the obvious, that THE EARTH WAS without form and void. Of course the earth would have been without form (to sustain life) and void (of life) if God, hypothetically, had just made it!”
    ——————————————————————————————–
    Your story would be more in line with the Scripture account if it stated:
    “This morning I went Christmas shopping for my family. First I drove to the toy store, but the toy store was void (of toys) and without form (not built yet). So, I ordered toys from Amazon. The next year I went to the toy store and it was formed and there were toys inside the store!
    Therefore there was a gap in time before I could but xmas gifts for my kids from the toy store.
    ————
    David H:
    You state above, time began “in the beginning”. I agree. What is it that we measure time with? Days, Minutes, seconds, light speed?
    —————–
    RESPONSE:
    2 PETER 3:8:
    But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    ——————————————————————
    David H:
    He answered, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, (Matthew 19:4)
    Well, here we have a contradiction to your theory. Was the beginning a different day, or is the beginning a reference to the first six days?
    —————–
    RESPONSE:
    At the beginning or from the beginning IN THIS CONTEXT is a reference to the beginning of man, NOT the beginning of the heavens and the earth.
    ———–
    David H:
    If light speed is a constant, we would be seeing stars appearing out of nowhere even today. But we do not. Therefore, either light speed was instantaneous at creation or the age of the universe needs to be older.
    —————–
    RESPONSE:
    Your statement would be true, IF the universe were say 6-thousand-years-old, and then we would see light suddenly appearing from 14-billion-light-years-away. BUT that is not what what we are seeing. If the universe and earth were 15-billion-years-old, and the farthest star is 14.5-billion-light-years away, they there would be no sudden appearances of stars. All the stars light that we would ever see would be already be within distance and time and would already be reaching us.
    —————-
    David H:
    God did not place a bunch of baby animals on the earth, instead he created mature grown animals…The Chicken came first, and not the egg. Your theory is putting the egg before the chicken when it comes to the stars, and the sun and the moon.
    —————–
    RESPONSE:
    No. You got it backward. What you are doing is putting starlight back in time BEFORE the stars. If the stars are 6,000-years-old. then there light should NOT reach us if their light emissions are over 14-billion-light-years away.
    What came first, the stars or the starlight?
    According to you: the starlight!
    You say the chicken came before the egg, but then you go on to say the distant starlight came before the stars!
    ———–
    David H:
    I Pray this comment removes those scales from your eyes, that are making you Blind to the Truth.
    —————–
    RESPONSE:
    Your flailing comments only reinforced the Scripture truth of old earth creationism. I hope my article and answers to your questions have removed the blindfold from your eyes, and that you will embrace old earth creationism as the truth, as I have so articulately and elegantly laid out the truth for you here.

    God bless.

  3. David H.

    December 13, 2015 7:45 am at 7:45 am

    Once again, you misrepresent what I said. you have a BIG problem understanding the text you are given. But then should I expect more from someone who has thrown common sense aside in favor of intellectual elitism.
    Here is what I Wrote: Take your time this time and read it carefully.
    =======================================================================
    5. The denial of the supernatural act of creation.
    God created man as an adult, Adam was not born as a baby. simple concept we all can agree on. God created the stars on the fourth day, and their light was instantaneous. Fact is God created the stars on the fourth day of creation.
    And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day. (Genesis 1) If light speed is a constant, we would be seeing stars appearing out of nowhere even today. But we do not. Therefore, either light speed was instantaneous at creation or the age of the universe needs to be older. I believe the former, you believe the latter. But you also believe that God created in six days what is visible to us. So there is a contradiction in your theory, an obvious one, which I am amazed that you cannot see. God created the stars on the fourth day, along with the sun and moon, and “set” them in the expanse of the heavens to give light. Their light shone on that very day. There was no sun shining on day one of creation. Only the Son.
    ========================================================
    SEE IT YET? GOD MADE THE STARS MOON AND THE SUN ON THE FOURTH DAY….That the Light shining on the first day was the SON, not the SUN. Just like it will be in the end…
    They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. (Revelation 22:5) The contradiction in your post is so glaring [:)] that it has blinded you. In the night sky we can see stars and galaxies that are more than 6000 light years away. They are not popping up out of nowhere. Let me quote the scripture again, because you accept the 6 days of creation as being 6000 years ago.
    15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. 16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.
    Do You see it Yet?????? Stars were “Made” on the fourth day. According to you this was 6000 years ago…..Yet you presume a constant light speed (A form of uniformitarianism) Meaning that to this day, we could not see any stars farther than 6000 light years away. But this is not the case. We can see stars and galaxies with the naked eye that are more than 6000 light years away.
    The Only way to see this is to say that there was an instantaneous supernatural creation of the light from the stars coming to earth.
    ============================
    As for the shopping paragraph, And the formless void, think of it this way.
    “This morning I went Christmas shopping for my family. [because I had not done any shopping yet] First I drove to the toy store, and bought some games for my kids. Then I drove to the clothes store to buy some clothes, and then to the hardware store to buy some tools. I was finished with My shopping before lunch time. and went home and took a nap.”

    The paragraph says nothing about the toystore not having toys or being under construction. That was added by you. I said nothing about amazon, because I never buy stuff online. Again, you added that to make your theory work. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR THEORY< YOU ARE ADDING TO THE TEXT WHAT IS NOT THERE, AND IT IS FULL OF CONTRADICTION.
    ==========================
    You Also deny the supernatural act of God, thereby robbing glory from God, and giving it to Nature. This what DEISTS do, and here, you have done so, and it begs me to ask you the question if you are a freemason?? Because these are their teachings that you are teaching.
    ====================================================
    I Noticed that you also ignored all the discussion on the Hegellian dialectic, which is so ingrained in our culture, and public schools and universities as if it were fact. It pits religion against science, and you are and have been using it here in your discussions, calling me a flat earther among other things.

  4. George Lujack

    George Lujack

    December 13, 2015 12:52 pm at 12:52 pm

    David H:
    The denial of the supernatural act of creation.
    God created man as an adult, Adam was not born as a baby. simple concept we all can agree on. God created the stars on the fourth day, and their light was instantaneous. Fact is God created the stars on the fourth day of creation.
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    There is no “denial” of the supernatural act of creation, but there is a denial of how YOU and other young earth creationists say that it happened. So… in this case, IN THE BEGINNING when God created the heavens and the earth, He did NOT create the stars? Then He created all the billions upon billions of stars on day 4?
    NOT SO. Article covers this…
    ———
    NOTE:
    “He made the stars also,” (Genesis 1:16) is a confirmation of what God had already done IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1), rather than a proclamation that He made the stars on day-4 of creation week.

    The sentence context within the paragraph structure of Genesis 1:16 is like saying, “General Motors made this new model car on day-4 (Wednesday). They made the GM factory also.” One would not logically conclude that General Motors made the factory on the same day-4 that they made their new model car, and we shouldn’t believe that God made all of the countless trillions of stars of the universe on the same day that He ignited the sun to illuminate the earth.

    God created the heavens (cosmos / stars) IN THE BEGINNING, not on day-1 of creation week when God created light to illuminate the earth, nor on day-4 of creation week when God reaffirmed “He made the stars also.”
    ———–
    David H:
    And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.
    WHAT BIBLE IS THAT? BAD TRANSLATION!
    ——————-
    GENESIS 1:16:
    And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
    —————————————————–
    17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day. (Genesis 1) If light speed is a constant, we would be seeing stars appearing out of nowhere even today. But we do not. Therefore, either light speed was instantaneous at creation or the age of the universe needs to be older. I believe the former, you believe the latter. But you also believe that God created in six days what is visible to us. So there is a contradiction in your theory, an obvious one, which I am amazed that you cannot see. God created the stars on the fourth day, along with the sun and moon, and “set” them in the expanse of the heavens to give light. Their light shone on that very day. There was no sun shining on day one of creation.
    ————–
    RESPONSE:
    You are either being purposely deceitful or wildly ignorant here, to uphold and protect young earth creationism. God set the 2 great lights for the earth, the sun and moon, in the expanse of firmament (earth’s atmosphere) to give light upon the earth. He is speaking ONLY of the sun and moon here, NOT the stars.
    ————–
    GENESIS 1:17:
    And God set them in the firmament of the heaven (heaven = sky Gen 1:8, not heavens = cosmos) to give light upon the earth…
    ———-
    David H:
    The contradiction in your post is so glaring [:)] that it has blinded you. In the night sky we can see stars and galaxies that are more than 6000 light years away. They are not popping up out of nowhere.
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    They are not popping out of nowhere, BECAUSE the earth is billions of years old. If the earth and universe were thousands of years old, they would be popping into the night sky. It is YOU who is blinded. It is YOU who has the contradiction and to solve this quandary, YOU (and other YECs) proclaim that the light emitted from distant stars was instantaneous.
    ———–
    David H:
    Yet you presume a constant light speed (A form of uniformitarianism) Meaning that to this day, we could not see any stars farther than 6000 light years away. But this is not the case. We can see stars and galaxies with the naked eye that are more than 6000 light years away.
    The Only way to see this is to say that there was an instantaneous supernatural creation of the light from the stars coming to earth.
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    No. The other alternative is that the earth is billions of years old and that is the reason we can see distant galaxies.
    You have offered NO EXPLANATION as to why light speed would not be constant. Is the speed of sound constant? Is gravity constant?
    Do God’s laws governing the universe vary greatly? NO!
    Is the universe chaotic? NO!
    ———-
    David H.:
    The Only way to see this is to say that there was an instantaneous supernatural creation of the light from the stars coming to earth.
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    There is simply NO CONFIRMING SCRIPTURE VERSE to support that statement.
    YEC’s MUST believe this, because otherwise their belief in a 6,000-year-old universe would be as ridiculous as those who believe that the earth is flat.
    And it is just as ridiculous.
    God does NOT supernaturally “trick” us with the evidences of His creation.
    There are some YEC Christians who actually believe that dinosaurs never existed and that Satan planted the dino fossils to trick the world into thinking the world is older.
    GOD DOES NOT TRICK US BY ALTERING THE LAWS OF HIS CREATION, but YEC’s think He altered the speed of light. That is UNBIBLICAL and UNGODLY.
    ———–
    David H:
    The paragraph says nothing about the toy store not having toys or being under construction. That was added by you. I said nothing about amazon, because I never buy stuff online. Again, you added that to make your theory work. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH YOUR THEORY< YOU ARE ADDING TO THE TEXT WHAT IS NOT THERE, AND IT IS FULL OF CONTRADICTION.
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    You gave an non-comparable analogy, and I made it more applicable to Scripture.
    "This morning I went Christmas shopping for my family. First I drove to the toy store, and bought some games for my kids."
    In the analogy, your toy store was open for business, fully functional, and was selling toys. The earth was NOT. So my analogy more correctly reflected Scripture:
    “This morning I went Christmas shopping for my family. First I drove to the toy store, but the toy store was void (of toys) and without form (not built yet)."
    ——————
    GENESIS 1:2:
    And the earth was WITHOUT FORM, AND VOID…
    ——————————————
    As my article so correctly states…
    If IN THE BEGINNING were day-1 of the creation week, it would be pointless for God to declare the obvious, that THE EARTH WAS without form and void. Of course the earth would have been without form (to sustain life) and void (of life) if God, hypothetically, had just made it! The fact that THE EARTH WAS without form and void indicates a passage of time.
    ———-
    David H:
    You Also deny the supernatural act of God, thereby robbing glory from God, and giving it to Nature. This what DEISTS do, and here, you have done so, and it begs me to ask you the question if you are a freemason?? Because these are their teachings that you are teaching.
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    I teach the truth. I am an independent Messianic-Christian. If Freemasons teach what I am teaching, then they are wise in this one area of study. Don't know much about the cult of Free Masons, but just because a cult teaches a truth, does not invalidate said truth. A broken clock is right twice a day.
    ————————————————————————
    You are ADDING to the supernatural acts of God to maintain your YEC theory. God's universe is run by laws that govern it. He can and does have authority over those laws, but He does not trick us with the evidences of His creation.
    FURTHER PROOF:
    Not all the stars and galaxies are visibly with the naked eye. The Hubble telescope has revealed stars that we could not see. So, God did NOT shine all the light of His creation supernaturally upon earth so that every eye could see it. Only until this last century have we seen the vast universe that has been hidden from us.
    But YOU say God supernaturally revealed starlight (a mere portion of it) to us. WELL THEN, WHY DIDN'T HE BRIGHTEN UP THE DISTANT STARS SO THAT ALL MANKIND COULD SEE THEM?
    ——————–
    GENESIS 15:5:
    “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.”
    —————-
    Even if man attempted to number the stars, he could not.
    ———–
    David H:
    Noticed that you also ignored all the discussion on the Hegellian dialectic, which is so ingrained in our culture, and public schools and universities as if it were fact. It pits religion against science, and you are and have been using it here in your discussions
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    I have primarily used Scripture alone to prove that the earth is old. I only used 2-hard core, difficult to dispute scientific evidences: distant starlight and crater impacts. I suppose God "supernaturally" protected life on earth from the pummeling of asteroids during its history? Then God supernaturally eroded some of the the crater impacts and preserved others?
    GOD DOES NOT DECEIVE US WITH THE EVIDENCES OF HIS CREATION!
    Are we learning yet?

  5. David H.

    December 13, 2015 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm

    Re: Genesis 1 :16
    I used the ESV. Here is the KJV with the Strong’s numbers following the words. As you will see, the word “Also” was added by the Translators, and is not there in the original Hebrew.
    And God H430 made H6213 two H8147 great H1419 lights; H3974 the greater H1419 light H3974 to rule H4475 the day, H3117 and the lesser H6996 light H3974 to rule H4475 the night: H3915 he made the stars H3556 also.
    Here is the ESV again for comparison:
    16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. 17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
    =====================
    That is why we do not base our beliefs and study on one word in the text. I had someone try that before with the word “Then” before, and it just went in circles. Ie. Does the word then signify a passage of time. God would not make his Word such that you need a doctorate in Hebrew and Greek to understand it properly. In fact it was written primarily to and about Farmers, shepherds, fishermen, etc. Though Kings and wise men will benefit from its teaching, they will have a tendency to overcomplicate it. This is also How I know when you are at the point of grasping at straws to defend your theory, when you start playing word games.
    ================
    Re: My Story: I Kind of figured this would be your comeback to it. But it was my Story, as I was the author, and I never had intent to place a gap in between the first line and the second line. This is what you do not understand. What was the intent of the Author? This is Hermaneutics. I am Sure Moses would have clarified this Later in his writings, but he does not. Even your use of Genesis 2:4 Ignores the intent of the author and the context of the verse.
    =========
    You Wrote:
    WELL THEN, WHY DIDN’T HE BRIGHTEN UP THE DISTANT STARS SO THAT ALL MANKIND COULD SEE THEM?”

    You answer your own question with the very next verse you quote….
    GENESIS 15:5:
    “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.”
    That is the purpose, so that as each generation of man gains knowledge, and technology, they still remain in Awe and humbled by the immensity and scope of God’s creation. But even the most distant of stars become visible with stronger and stronger telescopes as their light has already arrived at earth. Stars in those telescopes are not just popping up out of nowhere in them, instead each time science develops a stronger telescope that can see further into the past they have to revise the age of the universe upward. When they had telescopes that could only see 4 billion light years into the past, they hypothesized that the universe was 5 billion years old. When Hubble could see 13 billion light years into the past, they had to raise the age of the universe to 14.6 billion years, or whatever it is now. The assumption is that all of this science is based on is that light speed is a constant. VSL theory PROVES that light speed can be manipulated and is not a constant. Even the measurements of light speed that man has done in the past 300 years show a trend towards deceleration. Here is a paragraph I wrote on another site on the topic, with some numbers to verify it.
    “In 1728 James Bradley, an English physicist, estimated the speed of light in vacuum to be around 301,000 km/s. He used stellar aberration to calculate the speed of light.” (source: http://speed-light.info/measurement.htm) 301000 km’s/ second equals 187032.729 miles/ second. The current measure of the Speed of light is 299792.458 km’s/second or 186282.397 miles/second. This is nearly a 1/2% deceleration over about 300 years. Now this in and of itself is not that significant, because there are more accurate methods of measurement coming out each time, but what is significant is that each time a more accurate measure is come up with, the trend is always to being a slower speed of light than the previous estimate. ”
    Now, obviously this is only a trend, and there are from time to time measures that are slightly higher, but the Oldest reliable scientific measure we have is the one from James Bradley. And I do know that 1/2% is not a statistically significant amount to make a trend a fact. God did not Only create the Stars on the fourth day, But he also “set them” in their place on that day. (Read verse Genesis 1:17 above. Verse 17 does not exclude the stars from the setting of the Sun and the moon, They were all set that one day. There is no exclusionary wording in that text. Had the Lord wanted to exclude the stars, he would have said he set the sun and the moon in the heavens. This right here proves that when God created the heavens on the first day, he did not create the stars, but rather the place (Space) where the stars would be set four days later. Just like he created the earth the first day and filled it on subsequent days. Like an artist who readies his canvas before he begins to paint.
    =================================
    You wrote:
    I have primarily used Scripture alone to prove that the earth is old. I only used 2-hard core, difficult to dispute scientific evidences: distant starlight and crater impacts. I suppose God “supernaturally” protected life on earth from the pummeling of asteroids during its history? Then God supernaturally eroded some of the the crater impacts and preserved others?
    Response:
    And I have used scripture and science to dispute the old earth theory of yours as well. VSL throws the assumption of constant speed of light into question, and makes it a lot less of a hardcore evidence for you to hang your theory on. Not to mention the FACT that God created the stars, and SET them in their place on the fourth day….Which should throw your theory into a tailspin…. But as I quoted to Just on the other page, “Whoever heeds instruction is on the path to life, but he who rejects reproof leads others astray.” (Proverbs 10 :17)

    BTW, I have another response to come shortly regarding the whole Hegellian dialectic, and deism to come shortly, so please wait to respond to this. Though it will seem like I am changing the subject, I am not, as this will be vital to you understanding why I am making such a big Fuss about your theory. Since you plead ignorance on the freemasons, I am going to educate you a bit on them, and tie it all to prophecy. I will try to have this post done by this evening.

  6. George Lujack

    George Lujack

    December 14, 2015 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm

    David H:
    Does the word then signify a passage of time. God would not make his Word such that you need a doctorate in Hebrew and Greek to understand it properly. In fact it was written primarily to and about Farmers, shepherds, fishermen, etc. Though Kings and wise men will benefit from its teaching, they will have a tendency to overcomplicate it. This is also How I know when you are at the point of grasping at straws to defend your theory, when you start playing word games.
    ———
    RESPONSE:
    It is you playing the word games, not I.
    ————
    GENESIS 1:1:
    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
    ——————————————————-
    Are not the stars part of the heavenly cosmos created in the beginning? So, did not God create the stars in the beginning and NOT on day-4?
    —————————————————
    “He made the stars also,” (Genesis 1:16) is a confirmation of what God had already done IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1), rather than a proclamation that He made the stars on day-4 of creation week.
    ———————–
    The sentence context within the paragraph structure of Genesis 1:16 is like saying, “General Motors made this new model car on day-4 (Wednesday). They made the GM factory also.” One would not logically conclude that General Motors made the factory on the same day-4 that they made their new model car, and we shouldn’t believe that God made all of the countless trillions of stars of the universe on the same day that He ignited the sun to illuminate the earth.
    ————————
    Young earth creationists have a paradox dilemma: When were the stars created? They believe IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1) represents day-1 of creation week, but most young earth creationists believe the stars were created on day-4 of creation week (Genesis 1:16).
    ————
    GENESIS 1:1:
    IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens (including the stars) and the earth.
    —————-
    GENESIS 1:16,19:
    He made the stars also. … So the evening and the morning were the forth day.
    —————————————————————————-
    The stars were created IN THE BEGINNING, which was long before day-1 of creation week. Genesis 1:16 is a confirmation that God made the stars also – IN THE BEGINNING.
    ——–
    David H:
    Re: My Story: I Kind of figured this would be your comeback to it. But it was my Story, as I was the author, and I never had intent to place a gap in between the first line and the second line. This is what you do not understand.
    ———
    RESPONSE:
    The problem is that you were using your story to discredit the truth of Scripture. Your story did not match up with what Scripture stated and I pointed that out. That is what you do not understand, or if you do understand, then you are being deceptive.
    ——–
    David H:
    God did not Only create the Stars on the fourth day, But he also “set them” in their place on that day. (Read verse Genesis 1:17 above. Verse 17 does not exclude the stars from the setting of the Sun and the moon, They were all set that one day.
    ———
    RESPONSE:
    You are reading your YEC beliefs onto the text again.
    —————-
    GENESIS 1:16-18:
    Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness.
    ——————–
    The 2 great lights are the context of these Genesis passages and what was set in the firmament to give light upon earth. Distant stars do not give anything but trace amounts of light on earth. The sun rules the day and the moon the night. Distant stars do not divide light from darkness on the earth.
    “He made the stars also.”
    Yes, He did. He made the stars IN THE BEGINNING when He created the heavens and the earth. What exactly did he create IN THE BEGINNING then, if He created the stars on day 4?
    That does NOT MAKE SENSE.
    IN THE BEGINNING God created the heavens (including the stars) and THE FOUNDATION of the earth.
    ——–
    David H:
    VSL throws the assumption of constant speed of light into question, and makes it a lot less of a hardcore evidence for you to hang your theory on.
    ———
    RESPONSE:
    Variable speed of light (VSL) THEORY is a theory ONLY and has not been proven at all. The only reason VSL theory exists, is because Young Earth Creationists had to invent it because of their incorrect interpretation of Scripture; believing that the universe and earth are 6,000-years-old.
    —-
    Throughout the universe we see an orderly universe ruled by laws that do not vary. The Variable Speed of Light VSL theory is as ill conceived and laughable as if someone were to come out with a Variable Weight of Gravity (VWG) theory, proposing that the gravitational pull between two objects was not always constant and may have been greater or lesser in the past.
    A chaotic universe, ruled by laws that vary, is not what we have. What we have is a stable universe governed by laws that do not change. The laws of the universe reflect the character of God who created it, who does not change or vary.
    ————
    MALACHI 3:6:
    I am the Lord, I do not change.
    ————
    HEBREWS 13:8:
    Yeshua Messiah (Jesus Christ) is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
    ———-
    JAMES 1:17:
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness…

  7. David H.

    December 14, 2015 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm

    You wrote:
    Young earth creationists have a paradox dilemma: When were the stars created? They believe IN THE BEGINNING (Genesis 1:1) represents day-1 of creation week, but most young earth creationists believe the stars were created on day-4 of creation week (Genesis 1:16).
    Response:
    No there is no paradox, and actually science backs us up here. They call it the space time continuum. This is where genesis 1:2 comes into play. God making the canvas ready for his act of creation. Such a simple concept, and yet you want to over complicate it. As I said before, the original Hebrew does not have the word “Also” in verse 16 It was an add by the interpreters to fit the sentence structure they used. There is no way for you to refute this. I Even Posted the Strong’s numbers, “Also” is not there.

    This is why I am not KJV only person, as some are. Though it is by far the most accurate translation out there, They did not do a very good job on the poetry sections of the text.
    =====================================================================
    RE: setting the stars in the sky:
    SHOW ME WHERE it says God created the stars IN THE BEGINNING????? You cannot, because it only says the “heavens”…….You have to assume that heavens= stars, .and you know what they say ASS U ME leads to……. I rely on the text of verse two which state an empty void….Aka Space….Light= time (verse 3)..all together=Space time continuum. Notice the earth itself was formless…..A cloud of dust. Again, the word stars does not occur in genesis 1, until the sixteenth chapter. Your theory is based on an assumption on your part. It is only when the text seamlessly is put together that we see God creating the space time continuum, the fabric of space, The canvas for his Masterpiece.
    ====================================================================
    You Wrote:
    “The only reason VSL theory exists, is because Young Earth Creationists had to invent it because of their incorrect interpretation of Scripture; believing that the universe and earth are 6,000-years-old.”
    Response:
    This is a blatantly false statement on your part. Actually Einstein was the first to suggest this. Here is the Wiki Page on the topic, and you should correct your deliberate lie that you wrote above. Shame on you.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_speed_of_light
    As I mentioned to Jay Clemmons on the other page, VSL does not talk at all about cosmic light speed slowing down at all, It only shows that it can be manipulated, and therefore is not a constant. That is where I interject with what the word of God says. He “Set the stars” in the heavens on the fourth day, and they “shone upon the earth”, That would be all of the lights, the sun, the moon, and the stars. There is no linguistic separation to exclude stars being set on the fourth day.
    ================================================================
    You wrote:
    Throughout the universe we see an orderly universe ruled by laws that do not vary. The Variable Speed of Light VSL theory is as ill conceived and laughable as if someone were to come out with a Variable Weight of Gravity (VWG) theory, proposing that the gravitational pull between two objects was not always constant and may have been greater or lesser in the past.
    A chaotic universe, ruled by laws that vary, is not what we have. What we have is a stable universe governed by laws that do not change. The laws of the universe reflect the character of God who created it, who does not change or vary.
    Response:
    You fail to take into account the curse of the fall, and the Entropy that it introduced. It is the light of Christ that holds all things together (Hebrews 1:3) You mock VSL, but much of what they do is true science, and reproducible in a lab. I have used their science to Hypothesize a historical trend. I admit that this is a hypothesis, but it is one that is backed up by the word of God, the Only eyewitness account we have (Written by the Holy Spirit through Moses). You as a Police officer should appreciate an eyewitness testimony, and one who is also known as the Spirit of Truth, so we know that testimony is true!!!!!!!!!!!!
    As I also wrote earlier, Gravity and entropy are interrelated. They balance each other out. This is why astronauts who go to space balloon up in their soft tissue, and come home as virtual vegetables if they cannot simulate gravity while in space for prolonged periods of time. You are an Older person, I am sure that you can appreciate the fact that gravity is a big problem as we age, and it eventually sends us to the grave. I Have never really thought about it, but perhaps this was a part of the fall as well??? Man had to toil in the field??? Perhaps there was a different gravity before the fall, and definitely after the flood, the effect was increased, and reflected in the shorter life spans of people…..But this is you changing the subject.
    But let’s look at Einstein’s equation Energy=Mass x Speed of light squared. If C2 is variable, then energy is variable. Wait till the elites figure out a way to weaponize this. CERN is already at work on this, and China is set to build an accelerator that will make CERN look like a toy. This is where science runs amuck with no God in it.
    ===========================================================
    Give up Yet? 🙂 I’ll get back to you on the freemasons, Hegel, and Deism later. Ran out of time last night, and do not have anymore time today.
    ====================================================================

  8. George Lujack

    George Lujack

    December 14, 2015 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm

    David H:
    No there is no paradox, and actually science backs us up here. They call it the space time continuum. This is where genesis 1:2 comes into play. God making the canvas ready for his act of creation. Such a simple concept, and yet you want to over complicate it. As I said before, the original Hebrew does not have the word “Also” in verse 16 It was an add by the interpreters to fit the sentence structure they used. There is no way for you to refute this.
    ———-
    RESPONSE:
    Space time continuum? This is not Star Trek!
    So, we are getting somewhere here. In your opinion, God created the canvass of the universe on day-1, and filled the canvass with stars on day-4. Interesting, but incorrect.
    You speak of this as being a simple concept. It is THE SAME simple concept that you refuse to accept regarding the earth, in that God created THE FOUNDATION of the earth IN THE BEGINNING and FINISHED the earth during the 6-days. Such a simple concept and you overcomplicate it.
    ———————————————————————————
    BERESHITH / GENESIS 1:16 (Hebraic to English translation):
    And Elohim made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night, and the stars.
    ——————————————————-
    Since I am one who tells the truth, I do not refute it. I am refuting that the stars were made on day-4. Even in Hebraic, it is a passive statement that He made the stars, not on day-4, but it was He that made them.
    ———————————————————
    I can simply remove the word “also” from my article explanation, and the explanation remains the same:
    The sentence context within the paragraph structure of Genesis 1:16 is like saying, “General Motors made this new model car on day-4 (Wednesday), and they made the GM factory.” One would not logically conclude that General Motors made the factory on the same day-4 that they made their new model car, and we shouldn’t believe that God made all of the countless trillions of stars of the universe on the same day that He ignited the sun to illuminate the earth.
    —————
    David H:
    RE: setting the stars in the sky:
    SHOW ME WHERE it says God created the stars IN THE BEGINNING????? You cannot, because it only says the “heavens”…….You have to assume that heavens= stars, .and you know what they say ASS U ME leads to……. I rely on the text of verse two which state an empty void….Aka Space….Light= time (verse 3)..all together=Space time continuum. Notice the earth itself was formless…..A cloud of dust. Again, the word stars does not occur in genesis 1, until the sixteenth chapter. Your theory is based on an assumption on your part. It is only when the text seamlessly is put together that we see God creating the space time continuum, the fabric of space, The canvas for his Masterpiece.
    ——————
    RESPONSE:
    Genesis 1:1 does NOT say God made the canvass, which is empty space, but the heavens. Furthermore, Genesis 1:1-3 does not state that the universe was void and without form, it states that the earth was. So it is YOU that is making the assumption that the stars were not created IN THE BEGINNING and the heavens do not include the stars. Genesis 2:4 refutes that whole theology.
    —————–
    GENESIS 2:4:
    … IN THE DAY that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
    —————–
    It was in the day, the thousand year period, that God made THE FOUNDATION of the earth, the stars, and the other worlds.
    ———-
    David H:
    “The only reason VSL theory exists, is because Young Earth Creationists had to invent it because of their incorrect interpretation of Scripture; believing that the universe and earth are 6,000-years-old.”
    Response:
    This is a blatantly false statement on your part. Actually Einstein was the first to suggest this. Here is the Wiki Page on the topic, and you should correct your deliberate lie that you wrote above. Shame on you.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_speed_of_light
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    I should have more correctly stated that YEC’s NEED TO USE the VSL theory in order for YEC to be possible. Yet, VSL is still only theoretical, and has not been proven AT ALL.
    ———–
    David H:
    Give up Yet? 🙂
    ——————-
    They have asked Donald Trump when was he going to give up and get out of the race? Trump said that he was winning, was the clear front runner, and was not getting out of the race. Why should he get out if he is winning?
    That is my response to you.
    Give up yet? I am winning. I welcome the challenging debate and discussion I am having with you over this. I will probably not turn you from young earth creationism to old earth creationism, but iron sharpens iron.
    ———————
    You have avoided responding to these Scripture points, that proclaim the earth’s foundation to be old, that tilt the argument in favor of old earth creationism:
    ———————
    PSALM 102:25:
    OF OLD You laid THE FOUNDATION of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
    ——————
    2 PETER 3:5:
    For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were OF OLD…
    ———————————–
    WITH INTERPRETATION:
    2 PETER 3:5:
    For this they [YOUNG EARTH CREATIONISTS] willingly are ignorant of, that BY THE WORD OF GOD [SCRIPTURE] the heavens were OF OLD…
    ———–
    Now remember, the book of Psalms was probably written around 1,000-B.C., 3,000-years-ago. The writer of Psalms said “OF OLD” THE FOUNDATION of the earth was laid. If the earth was created a mere 3,000-years before the book of Psalms was written, then could the earth’s foundation be said to be “of old?”
    Likewise 2 Peter 3:5 was written 2,000-years-ago, which would be a mere 4,000-years after the creation of the young earth, if YEC’s were correct, which of course, they are not.

  9. David H.

    December 14, 2015 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm

    Re: winning:
    Just like the rabbit in the rabbit and the hare.

    I Am going to respond to those last verses first beginning with 2 Peter 3:5. Let’s look at the context of the verse, and see if that was the authors intent to make a point about Gap theory?
    ======================
    This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, 2 that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
    8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,[a] not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
    =============================================
    First of all, 2 Peter is a response to His first epistle. The first epistle was written for Christians facing persecution and dealt primarily with the immanency of Christ’s second coming. This second Epistle deals with Scoffers and False teachers who berate believers as to the delay in Jesus coming again. Chapter three is the heart of this discussion.
    =============================================
    It is verse 4, that is the key. “4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” This , is EXACTLY what you said in your comment to me above regarding VSL…Let me Quote it for you so you and others can compare…………………………………………………
    “Throughout the universe we see an orderly universe ruled by laws that do not vary. The Variable Speed of Light VSL theory is as ill conceived and laughable as if someone were to come out with a Variable Weight of Gravity (VWG) theory, proposing that the gravitational pull between two objects was not always constant and may have been greater or lesser in the past.
    A chaotic universe, ruled by laws that vary, is not what we have. What we have is a stable universe governed by laws that do not change. The laws of the universe reflect the character of God who created it, who does not change or vary.”……………………………………………..
    This is Uniformitarianism in a nutshell.
    ================================
    Let’s continue:
    ” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.”
    Uniformitarians and I would add deists here, deliberately overlook the fact that the earth was flooded in wrath, and that earth that is now is stored up for wrath by fire. In Other words, these scoffers deny that the wrath of God is coming and that it will be here within days Which here are millennial days (verse 8). Also, It discusses the earth being formed out of the water, This is day 2and 3 of creation. So the question here arises for you, If the Earth was a formless void, covered by the waters, meaning that the waters covered the earth, how is it that there is a record of craters stretching back, supposedly billions of years. This was the second “hard to explain” scientific record which you use to come to your overcomplicated compromised theory. Do Me a favor, Do a search of deep under water craters, and see how many you come up with Other than the Chixchilub crater in Mexico, and the Chesapeake bay crater which were coastal impacts.
    Here is a map for you to look at of the known craters.
    http://www.meteorimpactonearth.com/Images/Impact-cratering_Figure01_v2014-10-25_186-craters.JPG
    Notice something striking????????? (Pun intended)
    Craters do not appear under the water, and especially in deeper water. So If the earth was covered by water, As verse 2 suggest, and God separated the waters on the second day (verses 6-8), and then created dry land on the third day (Verse 9-10), and Craters only appear on Land, then, All the known craters are 6000 years old or less. This is a simple if/then logic statement. Backed up by a map that shows all the known impact craters, ALL of which are on land or in coastal regions and shallower water.
    So, there goes the Logic of your crater evidence. Slow and steady, and the Turtle is catching up to the hare, and overconfidence and pride lead to his loss, thinking he is winning, but he is losing. 🙂
    =====================================================
    Let’s do a little study of the words “of Old”
    In Genesis 6:4, The words “Of Old” are used to describe the Nephillim.
    4 The Nephilim[b] were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
    OF Old, here means does not refer to before the six days of creation.
    Job 20:4 uses of Old to describe the day when man was placed upon the earth.
    4 Knowest thou not this of old, since man was placed upon earth,
    Psalm 25:6 refers to God’s mercy and Love being “ever of Old”
    Psalm 68:3 Introduces us to the havens of heavens, The eternal Home of God, which was not created with the heavens in Genesis 1.
    To him that rideth upon the heavens of heavens, which were of old; lo, he doth send out his voice, and that a mighty voice.
    So when the Psalmist writes “Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.” The verse you quoted above, He is merely referring to a time in the distant past beyond his lifetime. What “of old”, does not contain is any value of time associated with it. For example, in Deuteronomy 32:7, Of Old refers to remembering the time when the Israelites were promised the Land of Israel to the fore fathers, After the Sons of Adam had their land divided. Or 1 Chron 4:40, where Of Old refers to the time when Ham (One of Noah’s sons) received his lands. Again, You are adding your interpretation of a gap to words that do not indicate a Gap. Of Old, God created the heavens and the earth……There is nothing there to indicate a gap of time between genesis 1:1, and the first day of creation. IT JUST MEANS AT SOME TIME IN THE DISTANT PAST. It is like saying When I was young. There is no mention of how old I was.
    ………………………..
    The race is now neck and neck, as your strongholds are coming down one by one. Pretty soon, you will be the emperor with new clothes, standing in the street naked, and blind.
    🙂
    Shall we go on??????????? I’d rather not humiliate you like that.
    Oh Well, here we go.
    RE: Space time Continuum.
    This is NOT star trek science fiction, this is Einstein, and His former Mathematics teacher Hermann Minkowski. Read more here: WRONG AGAIN ALMIGHTY TELLER OF TRUTH. (Sarcasm intended)
    http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/relativity/q411.html
    So now you owe an apology to them too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You Wrote:
    “Since I am one who tells the truth, I do not refute it. I am refuting that the stars were made on day-4.”
    I am not the one refuting you, The Word of God is. “16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.
    17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,”
    Grammar And sentence structure here is dictating that God MADE THE STARS On the fourth day. God is the subject of the sentence, Made is the verb of the sentence, The stuff in between the dashes are a more detailed explanation of What the two great lights are. In other words, if what is in between the dashes is removed, There is still a sentence there. Dashes, unlike colons, can have full sentences within them, but they cannot impede the original sentence from being a sentence. (How is that for reaching back into my memory banks OF OLD, Ha ha!)
    SO using this sentence in verse 16, The original sentence is the following:
    “And God made the two great lights and the stars”. The inserted Phrases give a detailed account of what the two great lights are, and the stars being the lesser lights. And then He set them into the heavens……ALL OF THEM, Stars included.
    THIS IS SIMPLE GRAMMAR here, But again, you want to overcomplicate and read into the text what is not there.
    =============================
    Shall we Go On?????????? Humty dumpty is about to fall off his tower wall…..
    ================================
    You wrote:
    I should have more correctly stated that YEC’s NEED TO USE the VSL theory in order for YEC to be possible. Yet, VSL is still only theoretical, and has not been proven AT ALL.
    Response:
    So the ALMIGHTY TELLER OF TRUTH made a mistake and won’t admit it.
    Some Words to describe this type of person:
    UNREPENTANT
    IGNORANT
    PROUD
    DELUSIONAL
    Unlike you, I have made many errors in my life, after all, I was prodigal. I have repented of those errors and sins, I returned to My Father, and he received me back with Joy, and Killed the fattened calf on my behalf. I was willing to return as a slave to him, and feed the pigs, as I was dirty anyway, But he received me as his son, washed me, and gave me new clothes to wear, Gave me HIS Spirit to teach me and sanctify me. I deserve none of this, His Love, His Mercy, and his grace. This is called a repentant heart, Fallow ground and good soil. Luke 18:9-14 speaks of this, Hear His words now.
    9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed[a] thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted.”

    I am his Servant, Nothing More. I can do nothing without His Spirit. My life is indebted to Him. He Is Knocking at the door of your heart. Will you let him in?? This is not a call to salvation, but a call to surrender. To Put to death the desires of the flesh, which includes the carnal mind, and the idolatry of intelligence, And to let him control, and teach you His mysteries as He “sups” with you. We are living in the Laodicean church age. William Branham was the first to articulate this. I agree with His teaching on this. All of us who call themselves Christians are nothing more than Laodiceans, and we all must overcome, or else, Like the nation of Israel he will spit you out. Some of you reading this now, have had their lives thrown into tailspin. Some of you blame the president, or congress, or the bankers, or the “Illuminati”, and what have you. But in that letter to the Laodicean church, Jesus says; ” Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.” ( Rev. 3:19) Return to Him, “Teshuvah”. Surrender to Him at the foot of the cross. We discussed 2 Peter 3 in this comment. I would like to point all of those reading this to verse 9 of that chapter. “9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” The Word reach here is Choreo in the Greek in which it was written. This word has no equal in the English language. It means: I.to leave space (which may be filled or occupied by another), to make room, give place, yield”. We all, have fallen, and have sinned, and fall short of the Glory of God, This is your opportunity to follow Him….Become a Christ follower, not a Baptist, or a catholic, or a Lutheran, or a Methodist, or a Pentecostal, or a messianic Christian. He is the way, the Truth and the life. Give him your life, and he will live in you, and through you. Do not fall for the Laodicean seductions of the carnal mind, as time is running out and he is coming again for his bride to those who are his, and in wrath to those who are not His.

    May the King of Kings be Glorified. He Is the WINNER. He Knows how to put Humdy dumpty back together again.

    Thank You George for allowing me to get my message out. I Have gotten kicked off many a “Christian” site and not been allowed to finish giving my message. The messenger has been killed many times before the message was ever delivered.
    Matthew 10:34-42

  10. George Lujack

    George Lujack

    December 15, 2015 12:57 am at 12:57 am

    David H:
    Uniformitarians and I would add deists here, deliberately overlook the fact that the earth was flooded in wrath, and that earth that is now is stored up for wrath by fire. In Other words, these scoffers deny that the wrath of God is coming and that it will be here within days Which here are millennial days (verse 8).
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    I do not deny that the earth was flooded in wrath or that it is stored up for wrath by fire.
    ————————–
    David H.
    Also, It discusses the earth being formed out of the water, This is day 2and 3 of creation. So the question here arises for you, If the Earth was a formless void, covered by the waters, meaning that the waters covered the earth, how is it that there is a record of craters stretching back, supposedly billions of years. This was the second “hard to explain” scientific record which you use to come to your overcomplicated compromised theory.
    ——–
    RESPONSE:
    Though waters covered the earth when God revisited it, they did not necessarily do so during its entire ancient past. The earth CAME TO BE in a state of waters covering it.
    ————————————–
    BERESHITH (GENESIS) 1:2:
    And the earth CAME TO BE formless and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep…
    ————–
    CAME TO BE indicates that the earth was in a state other than what it was originally created when God revisited it. So, it could be that the earth had dry land and afterward some natural occurrence caused it to be deluged with water. Scripture is not specific on this, but it does say that the earth CAME TO BE formless and empty.
    Furthermore, how much water covered the earth is also uncertain. If it were a few feet or inches, impact craters would have been left behind.
    ———-
    David H:
    So If the earth was covered by water, As verse 2 suggest, and God separated the waters on the second day (verses 6-8), and then created dry land on the third day (Verse 9-10), and Craters only appear on Land, then, All the known craters are 6000 years old or less.
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    There is no historic or scientific evidence to suggest earth’s craters all pummeled the earth within the last 6,000-years. Furthermore, the moon’s craters are clearly visible and there is no historic record of them impacting the moon (and witnessed by man) over the last half dozen millennia.
    ———-
    David H:
    Let’s do a little study of the words “of Old”
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    “Of Old” is a relative term. When referring to the Nephillim, as being of old, that is obviously a reference to the earliest humans.
    To declare the heavens and the earth, to be “of old” from God’s perspective, and declare His creation to be a mere 6,000-years-old does not make much sense, because 6,000-years to an eternal God is as 6-days.
    ———–
    David H:
    I am not the one refuting you, The Word of God is. “16 And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.
    17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,”
    Grammar And sentence structure here is dictating that God MADE THE STARS On the fourth day.
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    INCORRECT. The trillions of stars are mentioned as a confirmation that it was God that made them, not that He made them on day-4. It is clear that He did not make them on day-4, and the stars is NOT what He was referring to when you go on to verse 17. God set them (the sun and moon) in the firmament of the heaven [EARTH’S ATMOSPHERE] (NOT HEAVENS) to give light upon the earth…
    ————————-
    GENESIS 1:17 KJV:
    And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.
    ———————
    The stars are in the great expanse of the heaven(s) NOT within the firmament of the heaven (earth’s atmosphere).
    ——————
    GENESIS 1:8:
    And God called the firmament [EARTH’S ATMOSPHERE] Heaven.
    ——————
    The 2 great lights rule the day (the sun) and the night (the moon). God was referring to these lights that He created on day-4 and NOT the stars.
    ———–
    David H:
    Shall we Go On?????????? Humty dumpty is about to fall off his tower wall…..
    —————
    RESPONSE:
    Well then Humpty, if I were you I’d grab hold of something better than young earth creationism.
    Luckily for you, being that you are wrong, is that whether we believe in young earth creationism or old earth creationism, it is not a salvation issue.
    —————-
    David H:
    You wrote:
    I should have more correctly stated that YEC’s NEED TO USE the VSL theory in order for YEC to be possible. Yet, VSL is still only theoretical, and has not been proven AT ALL.
    Response:
    So the ALMIGHTY TELLER OF TRUTH made a mistake and won’t admit it.
    —————–
    RESPONSE:
    I did admit I made a mistake and should have stated my objection to VSL theory differently.
    —————-
    David H:
    May the King of Kings be Glorified. He Is the WINNER. He Knows how to put Humdy dumpty back together again.
    —————-
    RESPONSE:
    Amen!
    Well one of is is going to be Humpty Dumpty, with a cracked shell and egg on our face when we discover the truth of the age of the heavens and the earth, at His coming, when He instructs us in all truth. Remember to contact me then, and I will accept your humble concession that I was right.
    Shalom.

  11. David H.

    December 15, 2015 9:40 am at 9:40 am

    There is no more for me to say, I have refuted all your proofs. You are just going in circles now.
    Hee hee!
    The Lord bless you and keep you;
    the Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;
    the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace.
    Blessings to you and Yours this Christmas season. I Know some Messianics oppose the December celebration of Christmas, as it has Pagan roots. I do not disagree with this, yet I celebrate his birth with my family In December, Trying to keep the focus on Jesus, and not the other things that the season is associated with.
    One of my Favorite Christmas Hymns, Speaks of so much more than Christmas, but also about the redemption of Israel. Pay attention to the Lyrics. This Hymn dates back to the fifth century, and some even suggest it is one of the Hymns the Apostles would have sung, Or the first generation thereafter who saw the destruction of the Temple in 70 Ad.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RP4iyJqrPvY
    Enjoy.
    Jesus is the Lord!!

    • George Lujack

      George Lujack

      December 15, 2015 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm

      You have refuted me, but I have rightly refuted you and articulated old earth creationism as the truth.
      Nice music, but Messiah was definitely not born December 25th.
      I enjoyed the discussion.
      Shalom and Elohim (God) bless you David.

      • David H.

        December 15, 2015 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm

        but Messiah was definitely not born December 25th………….I agree.
        But merry Christmas, Nonetheless.

  12. Judy Shaw

    December 27, 2015 12:22 am at 12:22 am

    You two are going to wear me out!

    This I suggest: Go back and delete everything that is not Scripture and see what is left. If you wish to make an issue to develop a thought, present the Scripture and then do a ‘pull quote’ and paste it on the next line…stick to Scripture and discipline your selves to refrain from explaining what the Scripture states and allow the Holy Spirit to do the teaching. Keep searching and collecting Scriptures and arrange them to speak and leave the honor of revealing to the Holy Spirit.

    If you read the arguments made by the Catholics and Christians during the reformation, Christians did not win even though there is a distinction that should have won. They were forced into a compromise, and that compromise is chanted religiously to prompt many people into believing what they are told to believe when they attend a church who present that compromise-religiously. No one quoted pure Scriptures but all sounded very ‘highfalutin’, pompous and pretentious using speech that sounded educated but missed the mark to distinguish truth from error because they did not discuss using Scripture.

    On the issue of truth and its source and what makes truth, ‘truth’;
    John 17:17 “Sanctify them in the truth, Thy word is truth”.

    Romans 3:3 “…If some did not believe, their unbelief will not nullify the faithfulness of God, will it?
    3:4 May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written,
    ‘Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar.”

    “THAT THOU MIGHTEST BE JUSTIFIED IN THY WORDS,
    AND MIGHTEST PREVAIL WHEN THOU ARE JUDGED.”

    1 Corinthians 4:6 “…In us you might learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.”

    “HE WHO SPEAKS FOR ME SPEAKS MY WORDS.”
    “HE WHO SPEAKS HIS OWN WORDS SEEKS HIS OWN GLORY!”

    When a person is taught be the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, that person knows truth. It is useless to speak of Spiritual things to someone who is not born of the Spirit, for Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. We have a Helper to teach us and some people are awaiting the Helper but because they have not received the Helper- yet-they simply do not understand. “He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

    As for errors in our presentations, I think wisdom would say leave room for one another to grow and not shrink back in a shame that would lead to a discontinuance of study and effort to understand. There were some folks that were not following Jesus but they were seeking to cast out demons in the name of Jesus. The disciple wondered if they should hinder him because “they were not following along with us.” Jesus responded, “Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you.” On another issue, Jesus responded, Leave them alone, if anyone is doing something in my name, it wont be long before he is my follower.

    On the other hand, it behooves us to give a correct answer so that a student, disciple who publishes something on line does not misguide those who have no knowledge of any of the issues being discussed.

    The laws of the universe are set by God, but the laws on earth are not the laws on Saturn or Jupiter. Many years ago National Geographic presented an article about these two planets. I had to worship God as a result of what was described. A map of Jupiter showing points on the map where the temperature was 1,000’s of degrees heat and exactly next to it- pencil point away, the temperature was 1,000’s degrees below zero. Alternately, wind speeds-pencil point away on the map varied with no wind to 1,000’s of miles per hour. Seemingly, to earthlings view of science either would be impossible. (Don’t quote me on the 1000’s it may have been in the 70’s I read the article).

    As far as the topic of the age of the earth and all that has been herein discussed, there are other Scriptures to be mentioned that will give a clearer view. I shall endeavor to post them in the near future on my Facebook, The Children of the Kingdom of Light and Anthology of “Why is There So Much Evil In the World?”
    Anthology of Jesus Said, “The Parables and Hidden Sayings Uttered From the Foundation of the Earth”.

    I too have been excited about what I have been learning but I have not posted it on my Facebook because I am in process of deciding my format of how to present the anthology. My study is about 1,000 pages and this issue is enveloped within the larger study which has a different focus. it would be difficult for me to present the Scriptures regarding this subject and not offer my study in its entirety..I have tried sharing in bits but have come to learn it must be presented as a whole presentation.

    I hope to persuade you both to visit Proverbs 8:22-31. There are other passages too!
    Wisdom is speaking, (A Tree of Life: Proverbs 3:18)
    8:23 from everlasting…from the beginning…from the earliest times of the earth.
    8:24 When…no depths, no springs abounding with water.
    8:25 Before the mountains…before the hills
    8:26 While…He…had not yet made the earth
    While… He…had not made the fields
    While…He …had not made the dust…of the world (Before our bodies)
    8:27 When… He… established… the heavens (the heavens were established)
    When… He… inscribed…a circle
    8:28 When…He…made…firm the skies…

    THE NEXT PASSAGE IS PRECIOUS BECAUSE HE KNEW US BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH. NOTICE, EVEN THEN, AT THAT TIME, WISDOM HAD DELIGHT IN THE SONS OF MEN. WE EXISTED! AND THIS I COVER IN MY ANTHOLOGY.

    8:29 “…When…He… marked out the foundations of the earth
    8:31 “Rejoicing in the WORLD, HIS EARTH. (The world consisted of His Earth)
    “And having my DELIGHT IN THE SONS OF MEN.
    (But this is before Genesis 1:1) (Think spirit! Think God knew us from before the foundation of the earth, before there was dust to form our bodies. I will give Scriptures when I post my FaceBook page. )

    But Please! This is not the end of our instruction of the age of the Earth. There is more…much more going on than meets the eye of the first read. There are more important things to understand than the age of the earth; but, at first it did not exist, then it existed without inhabitant just as all planets currently are existing without inhabitant, and one day it will no longer exist. Bear with me until I post my anthology so that we can put a fuller panorama of what is happening at this event-line…actually before…Genesis 1:1. I promise to use Scriptures and you may freely correct me if I fail to do so!
    Anthology of the Kingdom of Light
    The Children of the Kingdom of Light,
    Judy Shaw

    • David H.

      January 1, 2016 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm

      Judy,
      I Appreciate your response. Though you probably agree with George on the age of the earth.

      My Main objection to this theory is that it adds to scripture. That add, is a compromise to the “scientific” findings of people who do not have the best interest of the church in mind, instead they begin with the assumption that there is no God, who acts supernaturally in our material world. This is Deism. The belief that God set the earth and the stars in the sky like a clock to run uniformly across the ages. The theory that God is subject to the natural laws he has created.

      Sociologically speaking, this view of God as powerless is a result of a church who has become powerless. The Laodicean church has a delusion that they are in need of nothing, including the Holy Spirit and His teaching. The Prophet Daniel spoke of this time:
      But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Dan 12:4)
      God is beyond our knowledge.

      Paul also writes of these times.
      Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
      Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the FAITH. (2 Tim. 3:7-8)

      Jannes and Jambres were the false prophets of Pharaoh, who duplicated some of the plagues of Moses…Thus denying that they were miracles from God….which in turn hardened the heart of Pharaoh. I cannot tell you how many of the Jannes and Jambres types we see today on the History channel, and whatever science channel out there who try to rationalize the supernatural acts of God as natural acts. One even went so far as to say that the killing of the firstborn was the result of Carbon dioxide being released from the bottom of some lake that killed them because the Egyptian children slept close to the floor as opposed to up in the rafters like the Jewish children, Thus denying the Passover blood. Or that the parting of the red sea was caused by the receding tide of a Tsunami caused by the Santorini volcano…. This is what I equate gap theory with. an attempt to justify Old earth scientific evidence with scripture.

      Think about this for a second. What tree was it that man was commanded to Not eat of in the garden of Eden? The tree of the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL. I choose to eat of the tree of life, which is Jesus. His Love surpasseth all knowledge. As any of you know, Love is beyond rationalization.

      Instead of trying to rationalize creation in the light of “scientific evidence” (which is not evidence at all), I choose to by faith believe that the Lord created the earth and the heavens in six days, by faith. Now my faith dictates my science, and not the other way around of science dictating your faith. ask yourself, Which is the right way to approach this topic?

      A Powerless faith will ALWAYS gravitate towards Deism, But a faith empowered by the Holy Spirit KNOWS that God is alive and at work in all of his creation.
      God Bless

      • George Lujack

        George Lujack

        January 1, 2016 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm

        David H:
        Judy,
        I Appreciate your response. Though you probably agree with George on the age of the earth.
        My Main objection to this theory is that it adds to scripture. That add, is a compromise to the “scientific” findings of people…

        RESPONSE:
        My article and theory do not “add to Scripture,” but rather it reveals Scripture. Scripture states that the foundation (AND ONLY THE FOUNDATION) of the earth is of old. You deny this plain written Scripture and declare I am adding to Scripture.
        So, scientific findings aside, Scripture declares the foundation of the earth to be older than when the earth was formed for life during the 6-day creation week period.

        • David H.

          January 3, 2016 3:23 am at 3:23 am

          And I by faith believe that the Lord created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six days. He did so miraculously and supernaturally. This is the simple textual interpretation of the creation, and one that ALL of scripture backs up, including the teachings of Jesus. As I wrote you before the phrase “of old” ONLY refers to a time in the past, as there is no way to measure time without light, and God is eternal and free of the constraints of time, all those scriptures you use as backing your theory are nullified. You have a hard time grasping this mentally don’t you? Of Old is referring to a time in the distant (beyond the lifespan of the commentators) past. In the case of Psalm 102, this is discussing the six days of creation.
          There are SOOOO many errors in your use of scripture as to be almost laughable, were it not so serious how compromised your theory is. Obviously, I am not going to change your mind, But the Lord will. I could sit here and scream at all of these errors, and you will not listen because you have hardened your heart, and are making the same grievous error as Jannes and Jambres did in trying to rationalize the supernatural acts God wrought through Moses and Aaron. As the verse above says:

          so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the FAITH. (2 Tim. 3:7-8) There is a reason why I capitalized the word faith….

          For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it NOT IN VAIN, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED: I am the LORD; and there is none else. ( Isaiah 45:18)
          Your gap theory states that God created the heavens and earth in vain…same word used in genesis 1:2 as formless, To be filled at some later time. He formed it to be inhabited….In six days. Read the verse in context, especially the verse afterward. It virtually disproves Gap theory in about 20 words.

          God Bless

          • George Lujack

            George Lujack

            January 3, 2016 4:17 am at 4:17 am

            David H:
            And I by faith believe that the Lord created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six days.
            RESPONSE:
            You, David H., have just added to Scripture with that above statement. In the beginning God created the heaven[s] (cosmos) and the earth. In those six days God created the heaven and the earth.
            This again proves that you place your interpretation above God’s word and the truth.
            David H:
            And I by faith believe that the Lord created the heaven[s] and the earth and everything in them in six days.
            You ADDED an “s” to heaven. Here is what Scripture actually says:
            EXODUS 20:11:
            For in six days the Lord made the heaven and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

            EXODUS 31:17:
            For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
            THIS is what Scripture reveals:
            GENESIS 1:8:
            And God called the firmament Heaven.

            In Exodus 20:11 and 31:17, the word “heaven” (singular) is used, not “heavens” (plural) indicating that “heaven” is referring to earth’s firmament (atmosphere) and not the heavenly cosmos.

            A correct interpretation of Exodus 20:11 and 31:17 should be understood to mean:

            EXODUS 20:11:
            For in six days YHWH (the Lord) made the heaven (sky) and the earth (suitable for life), the sea, and all (life) that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

            EXODUS 31:17:
            For in six days YHWH (the Lord) made heaven (earth’s sky) and earth (suitable for life), and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

            • David H.

              January 3, 2016 9:44 am at 9:44 am

              Please comment on Isaiah 45:18, and how the Lord did not create the earth in vain.
              “Lucy, you have some ‘splaining to do…” as Ricky Ricardo would have to say.

              Your theory says that God created the earth in vain, to be inhabited later.
              Again, your theory creates a contradiction, an extra day of creation, meaning that God rested not on the seventh day, but the eighth day…

              • George Lujack

                George Lujack

                January 3, 2016 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm

                No problem Ricky…
                ISAIAH 45:18:
                For thus says the Lord,
                Who created the heavens,
                Who is God,
                Who formed the earth [DURING THE 6-DAY CREATION WEEK] and made it [IN THE BEGINNING],
                Who has established it,
                Who did not create it in vain [TO REMAIN IN VAIN – IN THE BEGINNING],
                Who formed it to be inhabited [DURING THE 6-DAY CREATION WEEK].

                Notice how Scripture says God formed the earth AND made it, indicating 2-different creation events. He made it IN THE BEGINNING and He formed it to be inhabited DURING THE 6-DAY CREATION WEEK.

                IN THE BEGINNING was not a 24-hour day, so STOP making up this “God rested on the 8th day crap.”
                IN THE BEGINNING was a separate time span, covering countless weeks of creation, over the span of 1,000-earth years.
                OK, not “countless,” but about 52,000-weeks.

                • David H.

                  January 4, 2016 7:21 am at 7:21 am

                  George, do you see the difference?

                  I highlight the words of the passage itself.
                  For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it NOT IN VAIN, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED: I am the LORD; and there is none else. ( Isaiah 45:18)

                  You have to add meaning in between the passage:
                  Quote:
                  “For thus says the Lord,
                  Who created the heavens,
                  Who is God,
                  Who formed the earth [DURING THE 6-DAY CREATION WEEK] and made it [IN THE BEGINNING],
                  Who has established it,
                  Who did not create it in vain [TO REMAIN IN VAIN – IN THE BEGINNING],
                  Who formed it to be inhabited [DURING THE 6-DAY CREATION WEEK].”

                  So who is it that is adding to scripture????

                  • George Lujack

                    George Lujack

                    January 4, 2016 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm

                    David H.
                    So who is it that is adding to scripture????

                    RESPONSE:
                    For your information, whenever you see something in [BRACKETS], it is not an addition to the sentence (or in this case an addition to Scripture).

                    Square brackets are mainly used to enclose words added by someone other than the original writer or speaker, typically in order to clarify.
                    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/brackets

                    I have not added to Scripture, I have [CLARIFIED] it.

                    It was you who added an “s” to heaven, to make it “heavens” … “God created the heavens and the earth in 6-days,” when the “s” was not there. Your “s” was not a clarification; it was an addition.

  13. George Lujack

    George Lujack

    December 27, 2015 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm

    Judy Shaw:
    There are more important things to understand than the age of the earth;
    RESPONSE:
    No one denies that. Knowing the age of the earth is not a salvation issue.
    Judy Shaw:
    at first it did not exist, then it existed without inhabitant just as all planets currently are existing without inhabitant, and one day it will no longer exist.
    RESPONSE:
    I assume then, that you agree with my article and believe in old earth creationism?

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